The Greek Vase Art of the Storyteller Andrew J Clarke

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Jan 29, 2015 Monty Milne rated it really liked it

I remember buying this as an undergraduate at Oxford. Unfortunately, while I was on holiday in the long vac my female parent found my re-create and was and so scandalised past it that she destroyed it! My expostulations that information technology was a work of serious academic rigour cut no ice with her. "It was a nasty muddy book" she said. I've since replaced it, mainly for cornball reasons.

I never met the author (who was a don at Oxford while I was at that place) but I did hear from a fellow student (now a distinguished historian) that

I remember buying this as an undergraduate at Oxford. Unfortunately, while I was on holiday in the long vac my mother found my copy and was so scandalised by it that she destroyed it! My expostulations that it was a work of serious academic rigour cut no ice with her. "Information technology was a nasty muddied book" she said. I've since replaced information technology, mainly for nostalgic reasons.

I never met the writer (who was a don at Oxford while I was there) merely I did hear from a fellow student (now a distinguished historian) that Dover had originally written a preface along the lines of "Many people accept wondered why a pipe smoking heterosexual like me should take had sufficient interest in this bailiwick to have written a book on it...well, it'southward e'er been an interest of mine since a rather curious experience in my youth, which I now propose to describe..." My friend assured me that Dover was persuaded to excise this preface or he would accept certainly become a laughing stock. The story is no doubtfulness scurrilous and of hundred-to-one veracity, just there is a certain ponderousness of style hither which has the effect of causing unintentional humour - at to the lowest degree to a pervert like me - due east.one thousand. -

- Dover'southward dry annotation to one decorated pottery vase: "A youth places his finger in the anus of some other. Mayhap intended as a jocular insult."
For some reason the image of a highly respectable, tweed clad, uxorious Professor and Knight of the Realm carefully annotating a ludicrously lubricious piece of pottery in that manner gives me quite a lot of amusement.

...more than

Dec 24, 2021 saïd rated it it was amazing

Satyrs were a godsend to artists who felt impelled to give expression to exuberant penile fantasies...

Classics is a VERY SERIOUS DISCIPLINE. Ahem. The book's not too big, so even if it is a bit dry, have it slow and it shouldn't hurt likewise much.~~All jokes bated: this is a seminal hahaha~~
Okay, all jokes aside, this is a landmark text in the written report of ancient Greek sexuality and particularly aforementioned-sex relationships in Western classical antiquity. I won't ~~trounce around the bush-league and~~, Deplorable I'm trying I prom

Satyrs were a godsend to artists who felt impelled to give expression to exuberant penile fantasies...

Classics is a VERY SERIOUS DISCIPLINE. Ahem. The volume's non too big, then even if information technology is a flake dry out, take it slow and it shouldn't injure too much.~~All jokes aside: this is a seminal hahaha~~
Okay, all jokes aside, this is a landmark text in the study of ancient Greek sexuality and specially same-sex relationships in Western classical antiquity. I won't ~~beat effectually the bush and~~, Sorry I'm trying I promise. No more puerile jokes.

G.J. Dover's classic text on ancient Greek homosexuality (he conflates homosocial or fifty-fifty homoerotic situations with overtly homosexual ones, using the same singular label) works best every bit a inquiry aid rather than a primary source. The book's most recent edition is even so over thirty years sometime (which presents its own host of problems: despite the scores of vases included as examples, the code numbers used by Dover practise non match up with museums' numerical filing systems in almost every instance); scholarship has, undeniably, moved on since. Not only has the field of queer studies grown exponentially in the intervening decades but the academic mural of classics has become increasingly diverse, freshly supplanted with new ideas and advanced modern engineering science. Dover'due south research, which combines archaeological (such as mosaics or kylices depicting homosexual acts) and literary (such as poetry or law referencing it) show, may certainly seem impenetrable to a layperson or beginning academic only, when given a close read, is ultimately not but rewarding but genuinely engaging.

As for Dover'southward specific way, I personally find information technology incredibly amusing, nevertheless misguided at times (such as his views of women and rape). Despite the book'south deceptively short length (and a good fifty pages dedicated to photographs and illustrations of relevant artefacts), it'south a grower not a shower, and there's a lot of dense and academic information packed between the covers. It too helps that Dover doesn't proclaim to embrace the entirety of aboriginal Greek civilisation—this is but one of the first studies of its kind, no matter how comprehensive in scope it tries to be—and instead limits himself to the 8th to 2nd centuries BCE. Since the book was first published in 1977, only three years after sodomy was officially decriminalised (not legalised) in the United States, much of Dover'southward opening statements are occupied with explaining his reasoning for writing such a text, including explaining how he would handle the conundrum of defining the give-and-take homosexuality, which he herein uses to refer to, and I quote, "the disposition to seek sensory pleasure through bodily contact with persons of one's own sex activity in preference to contact with the other sexual practice." Bisexuality is almost entirely ignored, and certainly non mentioned by name; lesbianism is not even given the courtesy of a glance; the vastly unlike societal standards that formed ancient Greek conceptualisations of sexuality are skimmed with inappreciably a suspension.

Dover's chief sources are laid out equally the post-obit: one) poetry from the late archaic and early classical periods which mentioned and/or discussed homosexuality; 2) Attic theatrical comedy, peculiarly that of Aristophanes and his contemporary playwrights; 3) Plato, full stop; iv) Aiskhines'southward "Κατὰ Τιμάρχου" (Against Timarkhos), which Dover calls the "Prosecution of Timarkhos"; five) poetry from the Hellenistic period which mentioned and/or discussed homosexuality. These are, quite apparently, very express in scope, an unfortunate side result of the fourth dimension menstruum. Interestingly, in a deviation from his later fellows, Dover eschews dissecting Plato, stating that:

Plato differed from nigh Athenians of his time in possession of wealth and leisure, in boundless zeal for the study of philosophy and mathematics, in a suspicious and censorious attitude to the arts, and in contempt for commonwealth (to which it is off-white to add together that he differed from them also in his ability to write in a way which combines to a unique degree dramatic power, convincing characterisation, vitality and elegance) [...]. Yet Plato'due south right to speak even for Greek philosophy—to say nothing of a right to speak for Greek civilisation—was not conceded past other pupils of Socrates, and although Plato gave not bad impetus to philosophy, neither his own pupils nor the philosophical schools which arose in the 2 following generations accorded his teaching the status of revelation.

Basically, don't requite more than weight to the loudest phonation, no matter how obnoxious he is. Dover instead directs the reader'southward attention to Against Timarkhos, which he calls "the only surviving piece of work of [aboriginal] Greek literature on a substantial calibration ... which is entirely concerned with homosexual relationships and practices" (something I myself would dispute—not because I think there are necessarily others, but because I call up the topics in Aiskhines's piece of work are more varied), and, antithetical to Plato's more than high-society writings, was designed with the specific purpose of being read to a jury of average aboriginal Greek citizens. Against Timarkhos, Dover argues, is so more valuable than Plato,

If we want to discover the social and moral rules which the average Athenian of the quaternary century B.C. treated with outward respect and professed to observe, nosotros cannot practice meliorate than study the sentiments and generalisations which the forensic, orators brand explicit, the implications of their allusions, boasts or reproaches, and the points at which they introduce, or omit to introduce, evaluative terms into a narrative.

And Dover is certainly a pioneer in this regard, too every bit in terms of how academics in the relevant fields, specially those in ancient Greek queer studies, would go along to qualify and quantify these relationships and dynamics. This is scarcely more than evident than when Dover explains how contemporary (to him) readings of homosexuality in ancient Greek sources have been influenced by a homophobic and heteronormative worldview, something I'm sure volition strike a chord with modern academics besides:

I am far from claiming expertise in the interpretation of pictures, but I am fortified by seeing that experts sometimes err, east.1000. in describing a typical pair of males engaged in intercrural copulation as 'wrestlers' or in taking a scene of homosexual courtship, in which hares are offered equally gifts, equally a 'discussion of the day's hunting.'

We are yet fighting this battle, homosexual and heterosexual alike. (Interestingly, Dover bluntly stated that his own heterosexuality gave him a leg up, so to speak, in legitimising the field; he as well described himself as "fortunate in not experiencing moral shock or disgust at any genital human activity any, provided that it is welcome and agreeable to all the participants [whether they number one, 2 or more two].")

Dover also takes great pains to compare examples of ancient Greek homosexuality to gimmicky (for him) instances of homosexuality, whether innate or situational, noting, for case, that "No great knowledge of the world is needed to perceive the analogy between homosexual pursuit in classical Athens and heterosexual pursuit in (say) British club in the nineteen-thirties," and that, again,

Since it has been observed in our own day (to say nothing of Euboulos fr. 120) that segregation of males into armies, ships or prisons promotes homosexual behaviour, there is an a priori argument for an exceptional degree of such behaviour in Sparta and Crete.

Some of Dover'south arguments stand on shaky foundation, such equally his argument that the "best we can do" is, firstly,

to make the reasonable supposition that [ancient] Greek homosexuality satisfied a need non otherwise adequately satisfied in [aboriginal] Greek society, secondly, to identify that demand, and thirdly, to identify the factors which allowed and fifty-fifty encouraged satisfaction of the need by homosexual eros in the particular class which it took in the [ancient] Greek world.

Just it's not all side-winding about the question of why information technology's okay non to be heterosexual sans exception. "There is no sign ... in Aristotle, or indeed in Plato," Dover argues,

that a genital response to the bodily beauty of a younger male was regarded as a defect or harm of male nature, no matter what view was taken of the duty of the law to prevent gratification of the desire aroused by this response. [...] So long as we think of the earth equally divided into homosexuals and heterosexuals and regard the committee of a homosexual act, or even the entertaining of a homosexual desire, equally an irrevocable step across a frontier which divides the normal, good for you, sane, natural and proficient from the aberrant, morbid, insane, unnatural and evil, we shall not become very far in understanding Greek attitudes to homosexuality.

Well put.

Speaking of well put, I'll close with one of my favourite sentences from the volume, one which is (I think) particularly accurate:

if we could enquire ancient Greeks why homosexual eros, once invented, defenseless on so speedily, widely and deeply, practically all of them (I exclude some philosophers and well-nigh cynics) would respond rather as if we had asked them the same question virtually wine: enjoyment of both females and males affords a richer and happier life than enjoyment of either females or males.

...more

I read this book and told my lover that we had to attempt intercrural sex right now, I couldn't wait. I got into graphic symbol and murmured sweet nothings to him in Classical Greek, using my best simulated of a willing young ephebe's voice. I'm pitiful to say that he freaked. Wuss.
I read this book and told my lover that nosotros had to endeavor intercrural sex right at present, I couldn't wait. I got into character and murmured sweet nothings to him in Classical Greek, using my all-time imitation of a willing immature ephebe'due south voice. I'yard sorry to say that he freaked. Wuss.
...more than

This is often described as a landmark written report on the topic of Greek (male) homosexuality, the first study of its kind, and even the "the best historical business relationship of Greek sexual customs" by Martha Nussbaum. Naturally I had to read it. I'thousand not reviewing whatsoever of the content here, but instead simply make notes about the methods used and displayed.

I. About the volume

It'due south a short (~200 pages), scholarly work which examines pottery, texts, poetry from ancient Greece, "to describe those phenomena of homosexu

This is frequently described every bit a landmark study on the topic of Greek (male) homosexuality, the first study of its kind, and even the "the best historical business relationship of Greek sexual customs" past Martha Nussbaum. Naturally I had to read it. I'k not reviewing any of the content here, but instead merely make notes about the methods used and displayed.

I. Most the book

Information technology's a short (~200 pages), scholarly work which examines pottery, texts, poetry from ancient Greece, "to describe those phenomena of homosexual behaviour and sentiment which are to exist found in Greek fine art and literature between the eighth and 2d centuries B.C." (vii). He tries to avoid questions of anachronism about the use of "homosexuality" by adopting the working definition "the disposition to seek sensory pleasure through bodily contact with persons of one'south own sexual practice in preference to contact with the other sex" (1).

He points out that there are five major sources of material to draw from:
(a) late archaic and early classical homosexual poetry
(b) Attic comedy, particularly Aristophanes and his contemporaries
(c) Plato
(d) a speech of Aiskhines, the Prosecution of Timarkhos
(east) homosexual poetry of the Hellenistic menstruum

Surprising to me, he doesn't focus on Plato:

Plato differed from near Athenians of his time in possession of wealth and leisure, in boundless zeal for the study of philosophy and mathematics, in a suspicious and censorious attitude to the arts, and in contempt for democracy (to which it is fair to add together that he differed from them also in his ability to write in a mode which combines to a unique degree dramatic power, convincing characterisation, vitality and elegance)... Yet Plato's right to speak fifty-fifty for Greek philosophy -to say nothing of a right to speak for Greek civilisation - was non conceded by other pupils of Socrates, and although Plato gave corking impetus to philosophy, neither his ain pupils nor the philosophical schools which arose in the two following generations accorded his teaching the status of revelation. (thirteen)

Instead he focuses on (d), the Prosecution of Timarkhos, arguing that it is "the only surviving work of Greek literature on a substantial scale (45 printed pages in a modern edition) which is entirely concerned with homosexual relationships and practices" (13) and that since it was meant to be a speech designed to convince a jury compased of ordinary citizens, paying attention to information technology is far more revealing:

If nosotros want to discover the social and moral rules which the average Athenian of the fourth century B.C. treated with outward respect and professed to observe, we cannot do ameliorate than study the sentiments and generalisations which the forensic, orators make explicit, the implications of their allusions, boasts or reproaches, and the points at which they innovate, or omit to introduce, evaluative terms into a narrative. (13-xiv)

Once a framework is extracted from the Prosecution, a variety of other sources are analysed to evidence how these piece of work. Particuarly helpful is the ~50 pages of pottery photographs included (though not all referred to are printed, and even for those meant to be at that place according to the text, many are strangely missing). This helps run across what Dover is talking about. Admittedly some of Dover's readings are dubious, from the extracts and excerpts he provides, just that'due south to exist expected and even he acknowledges information technology.

Two. Context

As a non-scholar in this surface area, I'm not going to comment on how accurate the analysis is. It's fascinating to note, however, that standard terms nearly Greek sexuality which is somewhat familiar now might accept originated with him. For example he writes

I have consistently adopted the Greek term eromenos, masculine passive participle of eran, 'exist in love with ... ', 'have a passionate desire for ... '. For the senior partner I have adopted the Greek noun erastes, 'lover', which is equally applicative to heterosexual and homosexual relations only (being, like eromenos, derived from eran) is free from the ambiguities inherent in the English language word 'dearest'. (16)

Big, if true.

That this is a work from some other, far more homo-averse time is clear. He starts by arguing (using a lot of quotes from others) that the report of Greek sexuality has been impaired by bias.

I am far from claiming expertise in the estimation of pictures, but I am fortified by seeing that experts sometimes err, east.yard. in describing a typical pair of males engaged in intercrural copulation as 'wrestlers' or in taking a scene of homosexual courtship, in which hares are offered as gifts, as a 'discussion of the mean solar day's hunting'. (4-5)

Nonetheless, he positions himself every bit even-handed, explicitly affirming Arno Karlen'due south statement that "Some (sc. public and academic experts on sex) are secret homosexuals, their "research" disguised apologetics. Other researchers and clinicians reveal in individual a vengeful hatred toward sexual deviants that they would never brandish in print or in public" (vii). As opposed to these, he puts forward his credentials for objectivity every bit consisting of ii aspects:

-His indubitable heterosexuality

Established linguistic usage compels me to treat 'heterosexual' and 'homosexual' as antithetical, only if I followed my inclination I would replace 'heterosexual' by 'sexual' and treat what is called 'homosexuality' as a subdivision of the 'quasi-sexual' (or 'pseudo-sexual'; not 'parasexual'). Anyone who wishes to make an impression on me by ascribing my inclination to prejudice must beginning persuade me that he has made a serious effort to distinguish between prejudice and judgment. (vii-viii)

[In his 1986 Postscript, in response to crticism, he justifies this conceptualization with "My reasoning was elementary: nosotros have the word 'sex' because at that place is more than one sex, definable in terms of reproductive function, and I accordingly use 'sexual' to mean 'having to do with (deviation of) sex'." (206)]

-His lack of disgust at actual configurations:

I am fortunate in non experiencing moral shock or disgust at any genital deed whatsoever, provided that it is welcome and agreeable to all the participants (whether they number one, two or more than 2).

While this does seem like a scrap over-the-top by today'due south standards, the text itself is pretty good, and builds upwardly to defenses that the Greeks emphatically did not take a policy of coating disapproval of homosexuality, and that being paranoid about the presence of homosexuality volition make for poor understanding of those times:

There is no sign in the sexual discussions which make up Volume 4 of the Problemata, or in Aristotle, or indeed in Plato, that a genital response to the actual beauty of a younger male was regarded equally a defect or harm of male nature, no affair what view was taken of the duty of the police to forbid gratification of the desire aroused past this response. (170)
So long as we think of the world every bit divided into homosexuals and heterosexuals and regard the commission of a homosexual act, or even the entertaining of a homosexual desire, as an irrevocable step across a frontier which divides the normal, healthy, sane, natural and skilful from the aberrant, morbid, insane, unnatural and evil, we shall non become very far in understanding Greek attitudes to homosexuality. (183)

III. Interpretive methods

The lack of information means much of this is speculative and needs importing of conflicting norms to be interpretted. This ways numerous references to other cultures are nowadays:

In the erstwhile Norse epics the accusation '10 uses Y as his wife' is an intolerable insult to Y but casts no adverse reflection on the morals of 10. (105)
phalloi fixed on the ground, the former with two cavorting satyrs and the latter heavily veined in a mode unusual in Greek art (though normal in Japanese erotic prints) (132)

The assumption that shared sexual experience is the foundation upon which the mutual sexual passion of the partners is congenital rather than the goal towards which their pre-existing passion moves is widely adopted in societies which segregate boys and girls and put the responsibility of arranging marriages on parents. (151)

If the fable had no erotic element, we may wonder why beauty (as distinct from zeal and a steady mitt) is a desirable attribute in a wine-pourer, merely it should not exist impossible for us, even after a prolonged immersion in the ambience of Greek homosexuality, to imagine that the gods on Olympos, like the souls of men in the Muslim paradise (Koran 76.nineteen), merely rejoiced in the beauty of their servants as 1 ingredient of felicity. (196-vii)

Virtually conflicting norms are, unsurprsingly, from "our" own time and world:

If the quarry is human and the object copulation, the difficulty of the chase enhances the value of the object, and eventual capture, later fierce competition with rival hunters, is incalculably reassuring to the hunter himself. No great knowledge of the earth is needed to perceive the analogy between homosexual pursuit in classical Athens and heterosexual pursuit in (say) British club in the xix-thirties. (88)
In modern literature nosotros are more than likely to notice metaphysical language applied to sex than sexual linguistic communication to metaphysics; in both cases, the analogy is facilitated by the sensation, non uncommon in orgasm, that one's individual identity has been obliterated by an irresistible force. (165)

Since information technology has been observed in our own solar day (to say nothing of Euboulos fr. 120 [p. 135]) that segregation of males into armies, ships or prisons promotes homosexual behaviour, there is an a priori argument for an exceptional degree of such behaviour in Sparta and Crete (192-3)

This method of using similarity with the present to understand the past, however, results in an disproportion, where the past needs explanation in terms of the nowadays. Why, we tin can enquire, does the "infrequent degree of such behaviour in Sparta and Crete" stand up in need of explanation? Or at the to the lowest degree, would it at to the lowest degree be acceptable if symmetrically we could say "compared to the world of Sparta and Crete, modern backer, liberal society can be explained by the differentiated institutions present there"?

[Interestingly, there is one place where Dover asks the explicitly sociological question virtually the Greeks and tries to answer it:

Whether any anthropologist, sociologist or social historian initially ignorant of the Greeks simply supplied with a succession of information which did not include any manifest evidence of homosexuality could say afterwards a sure bespeak 'It necessarily follows that overt homosexuality was strongly developed in such a society', I do not know, and the experiment is hardly practicable, for a social scientist not already aware that homosexuality was a conspicuous feature of Greek life will not easily be found. The best nosotros tin can do is first, to brand the reasonable assumption that Greek homosexuality satisfied a need not otherwise adequately satisfied in Greek society, secondly, to identify that demand, and thirdly, to identify the factors which allowed and even encouraged satisfaction of the need by homosexual eros in the particular form which it took in the Greek globe. It seems to me that the need in question was a need for personal relationships of an intensity not commonly found within marriage or in the relations betwixt parents and children or in those between the individual and the community as a whole. The deficiencies of familial and communal relationships tin be derived ultimately from the political fragmentation of the Greek world." (201)]

Luckily, about the finish, Dover seems to break this asymmetry and tries to be more evenhanded analytically (only if implicitly):

if we could inquire ancient Greeks why homosexual eros, once invented, caught on and then apace, widely and deeply, practically all of them (I exclude some philosophers and about cynics) would reply rather as if we had asked them the same question about wine: enjoyment of both females and males affords a richer and happier life than enjoyment of either females or males. (200-ane)
The modern sentiment which I have heard expressed, more than in one case, in the words 'Information technology's impossible to understand how the Greeks could have tolerated homosexuality' is the sentiment of a culture which has inherited a religious prohibition of homosexuality and, past reason of that inheritance, has shown (until recently) no salutary curiosity about the variety of sexual stimuli which tin arouse the same person or about the divergence betwixt fundamental orientation of the personality and episodic behaviour at a superficial level. The Greeks neither inherited nor developed a conventionalities that a divine ability had revealed to mankind a code of laws for the regulation of sexual behaviour; they had no religious institution possessed of the authority to enforce sexual prohibitions. Confronted by cultures older and richer and more elaborate than theirs, cultures which none the less differed greatly from each other, the Greeks felt gratuitous to select, adapt, develop and- to a higher place innovate. Fragmented as they were into tiny political units, they were constantly aware of the extent to which morals and manners are local. This awareness besides tending them to relish the products of their own inventiveness and to aspect a similar enjoyment to their deities and heroes. (203)

Iv. Penises, tee-hee

Finally, being a child, there are many lines which I found hilarious, every bit is inevitable when such bawdy matters are treated scholarly:

It is not e'er easy to determine at what stage betwixt flaccidity and complete erection a satyr's penis is supposed to be. (128)
Patroklos in R39, while his wound is being bound upwards by Achilles, sits on his right heel in such a manner that his genitals balance on the upper surface of his foot; it is every bit if the painter were under a powerful constraint not to conceal the genitals. (130)

Satyrs were a godsend to artists who felt impelled to give expression to exuberant penile fantasies (835, in which a satyr'southward erect penis is equally massive every bit his arm, is the ultimate exaggeration), and the uninhibited behaviour characteristic of comast-scenes provided other opportunities for jubilant the ability of the penis. B678 is a fantasy rooted, I think, in that genre: a musician whose hands are fully occupied with the double pipe has a spontaneous ejaculation, and a bewildered bee dodges the bombardment. (131)

...more

May 31, 2020 Andrew rated it liked information technology

Dover'due south text is a seminal one on its subject and one that anyone who wants to study ancient sexual history must consult. However, it is now in its near contempo edition over xxx years o,d and there is no doubt that the scholarship has moved on. This can be seen quite readily in his constant referral to homosexuality instead of the more than appropriate term 'homoeroticism'. He wrote his book using a schema of sexual terminology that is non analogous to the context he investigates, or indeed the construc Dover's text is a seminal one on its subject and one that anyone who wants to written report ancient sexual history must consult. However, it is now in its nigh recent edition over xxx years o,d and there is no doubt that the scholarship has moved on. This can be seen quite readily in his constant referral to homosexuality instead of the more appropriate term 'homoeroticism'. He wrote his book using a schema of sexual terminology that is not analogous to the context he investigates, or indeed the constructs he posits.

There is no doubt that Dover's research, combining literary and concrete show is impressive. Nonetheless it has to be said that this, combined with his devotion to utilising Ancient Greek terms and his academic language in toto presents a serious barrier to all but the most astute reader. Whilst wading through Dover'south multiple citations and his numerous Greek terms it is very easy to lose the path and the historical narrative of his arguments.

Therefore, I would non recommend this volume to the lay reader or the not-academic. Diver wrote a demanding and extremely scholarly work that volition ever be most useful for those post-obit in his academic footsteps. It is not, however, a book to be digested readily past anyone who has minimal exposure beforehand to Aboriginal Greek study. Information technology is not a volume for everyone, but it is a book that volition meet the needs and interest of those starting to report the discipline Dover addresses.

...more

Nov eleven, 2011 Jane rated it liked it

While being very instructive I establish two things that hinerded the reading of this book...for me.

1. although he provided many photographs of vase-painting and gave a thorough caption of the vases....the code numbers didn't match up! I went through most all of the vases as he was explaining e.g. vase RS1098..and without question...numerically speaking I could never observe the vase. This was confusing to my reading well-nigh the vase and in the end I gave upward trying to match his number system with

While beingness very instructive I found two things that hinerded the reading of this book...for me.

1. although he provided many photographs of vase-painting and gave a thorough explanation of the vases....the code numbers didn't match up! I went through almost all of the vases every bit he was explaining eastward.g. vase RS1098..and without question...numerically speaking I could never find the vase. This was disruptive to my reading most the vase and in the end I gave upwardly trying to match his number system with regards to the vases.

2. He was so thorough in his explanation of many Greek words found...that sometimes reading about ane give-and-take in the middle of an explanation became most difficult. He seemed to parse sentences and words ad nauseum. eg. he would give the ancient Greek discussion followed by...'(....(a word...)' ".."..)

But he was trying to tell the reader how the words were actually establish in ancient scripts and stone.

Dover meticulously covered all the areas of Greek homosexuality: poems, epic, comedies, speeches. Very informative.

Then he delved into where it possibley originated.

He gave us stories of Spartan pederasty and how it differed.

All in all, despite the fact of the vase numerals, I found this book to exist very thorough and interesting.

...more

Jul 17, 2013 Ann rated information technology liked it

A landmark report in aboriginal Greek sex and gender studies, with adept reason. It'due south well-researched and informative, although some of Dover'due south footnotes are a niggling...awful. Take this 1 for instance about hubris and rape:

I do not eyebrow the foreign notion that women 'actually want' to be raped...

Well that'south skillful

...but I am acquainted with a case in which, according to her own private testimony, a woman violently resisting rape became aware that her firsthand desire for sexual intercourse had s

A landmark study in ancient Greek sex and gender studies, with expert reason. Information technology's well-researched and informative, although some of Dover's footnotes are a petty...awful. Take this one for example about hubris and rape:

I do not eyebrow the strange notion that women 'really want' to be raped...

Well that's good

...simply I am acquainted with a case in which, according to her own private testimony, a woman violently resisting rape became enlightened that her firsthand desire for sexual intercourse had suddenly become much more than powerful than her hatred of her attacker.

Why is this footnote included?

...more

Jan 27, 2019 Alex rated it liked information technology

Information technology is a hard matter to write a review of a volume so justly-famed every bit this one is; information technology seems harder to give information technology only three stars, so I take lingered on this review for a few days at present, seemingly getting nowhere. Dover deserves credit for being i of the first to openly tackle the topic of 'Greek love,' arguing his case patiently and thoroughly at a fourth dimension when a positive reception could not have been guaranteed. The study of sexuality in antiquity is well-worn ground now--and subsequent classicists Information technology is a hard thing to write a review of a book so justly-famed as this 1 is; it seems harder to give information technology only 3 stars, and so I have lingered on this review for a few days now, seemingly getting nowhere. Dover deserves credit for being one of the first to openly tackle the topic of 'Greek dearest,' arguing his case patiently and thoroughly at a time when a positive reception could not have been guaranteed. The study of sexuality in antiquity is well-worn ground now--and subsequent classicists have taken Dover to task for his (at times wilful) misinterpretation of some texts, ignorance of others, and then on--but Greek Homosexuality must however find a identify in the syllabus of every course on premodern sexualities, though I caution the curious not to read it in isolation. ...more than

Aug 19, 2020 Zachary Sokol rated information technology really liked it

A shockingly interesting read. Had a philosophy prof in higher that referenced this book constantly and fabricated jokes about it. Some of the funniest paraphrased epithets epithets (when talking well-nigh the Greeks): "The slippery thighs of a immature boy are far preferable to the cavernous parts of a woman", "boys are best right when they get-go getting a bit of peach fuzz". NOTE: I AM Non CONDONING PEDOPHILIA AND NEITHER DOES THIS Volume.

A somewhat idiosyncratic, but a very detailed overview of a subject, with the author taking a fine arroyo betwixt demonizing and glorifying the phenomena of Classical Greek aforementioned-sexual activity relations.

Kenneth Dover's 1978 text however remains the identify to start for an informed, nuanced and cant-free discussion of the topic Greek homosexuality. What strikes a modern reader is merely how evolved and admittedly sensible so many of the judgments are. The volume appeared midway between the decriminalization of homosexuality in Britain in 1967 and the passage of the odious Section 28 laws under the Thatcher government. In other words, Dover'south volume arrived at a time of swirling dorsum and forth arguments re Kenneth Dover's 1978 text still remains the place to get-go for an informed, nuanced and cant-costless discussion of the topic Greek homosexuality. What strikes a modern reader is simply how evolved and absolutely sensible so many of the judgments are. The book appeared midway between the decriminalization of homosexuality in Britain in 1967 and the passage of the odious Section 28 laws nether the Thatcher government. In other words, Dover'due south book arrived at a time of swirling back and along arguments regarding homosexual activity and ages of consent. Though his book is not virtually the gimmicky furore, everywhere Dover's text stands as a commonsense and tempered reflection on practices in the Greek world that obtained for a certain time under sure conditions. It remained breath of sensible air in an era of overheated rhetoric that sent many to the fainting couches. It still reads as remarkably forthright and gratis of jaundiced stupidity. One only wishes at present that a dissimilar term had been found for aforementioned-sex practices described in his text, since homosexuality is a (relatively) modern term that carries with it an enormous freight of preconceptions, most of which are less than relevant to the historical context Dover engages with. The work is encyclopedic in its utilize of images and texts (legal and creative) to unpack the topic, and almost entirely free of crippling jargon. As useful today equally when it first appeared, and a model approach to a fascinating and charged topic. ...more

It's a textbook, make no error. And information technology's not on Greek homosexuality overall simply just how information technology is portrayed in fine art. Which is off-white, relying on the sources simply, without whatsoever flights of fancy, though it does account for the deviation between real life and human emotion versus arcadian philosophy and any Aristophanes would do for a laugh. Simply the footnotes are agreeable at times and it is fascinating. It was also fun to read this in Panera, surrounded by all those nice families. :) It'due south a textbook, make no mistake. And it's not on Greek homosexuality overall but simply how information technology is portrayed in art. Which is fair, relying on the sources only, without any flights of fancy, though information technology does account for the difference betwixt real life and human emotion versus idealized philosophy and whatever Aristophanes would practise for a express joy. Simply the footnotes are amusing at times and information technology is fascinating. It was as well fun to read this in Panera, surrounded by all those prissy families. :) ...more than

Feb 20, 2012 The Kid rated it information technology was amazing

Dover offers a pretty thorough survey of extant fabric (literature, vase paintings, inscriptions etc.) and makes some interesting analyses. This volume remains an important introduction for anyone interested in homosexuality in the ancient Greek globe.

Fairly detailed methodical description and assay of homosexuality in Ancient Greece. Scholarly, detailed and academic but not beyond a lay person to read.

Looks at the law, manifestatio of eros and nature and society. Good, if somewhay dry out, read.

Jan 22, 2016 matt rated it really liked it

Read in order to support an essay argument. It was both informative and interesting in it offering links to other texts and interpretations. Dover breaks downward arguments into simple terms with his commentary oft beingness humorous making it an enjoyable read.

Absolutely fascinating, but I wouldn't actually recommend it to anyone who doesn't know some Greek. Interesting insights equally to whether Sappho was homosexual. I find myself marveling at several points that I at present knew what the Greeks thought of as the ideal shape for a penis. Absolutely fascinating, just I wouldn't really recommend it to anyone who doesn't know some Greek. Interesting insights as to whether Sappho was homosexual. I detect myself marveling at several points that I at present knew what the Greeks thought of as the ideal shape for a penis. ...more than